Apache Trail in Winter: November to February 2026–27

East of Phoenix the saguaros crowd in and the Superstition Mountains turn purple at sunset. Winter is the Apache Trail’s best season: cool, clear, and loud with gunfights on weekends. This winter is also an unusual one. Canyon Lake has been lowered 54 feet for a dam inspection that happens about once every 20 years, the Dolly Steamboat is out of the water, and the cliff road at Fish Creek Hill is open but no place for a rental sedan. Here’s what’s open, what isn’t, and how to spend a day out here between November and February.

Quick answer

• Is the Apache Trail open in winter 2026–27? Yes. ADOT lists State Route 88 as open end to end, including the dirt section from milepost 220 to 229.2. On Fish Creek Hill (MP 222–223.5) ADOT’s signs read “CAUTION: PRIMITIVE ROAD / No Trailers / 4-Wheel Drive and UTVs Only.” Check az511.gov the morning you go.
• What’s closed? Canyon Lake: the water, the marina, the boat ramps, the lakebed and the nearby Forest Service sites, including Tortilla Campground. Tonto National Forest closure order 03-12-00-26-22 runs through February 28, 2027 unless it is lifted early. The Dolly Steamboat is suspended and expects to return at the beginning of January 2027.
• What’s open? Goldfield Ghost Town (daily 10 a.m.–5 p.m., free entry, weekend gunfights November to April), Tortilla Flat (closed Thanksgiving and Christmas), Lost Dutchman State Park (closed Christmas Day), the Superstition Mountain Museum, the Desert Belle on Saguaro Lake, and the cliff dwellings at Tonto National Monument.
• Weather: highs in the mid-60s°F, lows in the 40s, colder at dawn. Sunset falls around 5:20–5:30 p.m. in December.
• Our pick: a guided day that doesn’t depend on Canyon Lake. If you drive yourself, any car can go as far as Tortilla Flat and the Fish Creek Vista overlook (MP 222). Don’t take a standard rental car past MP 222.

The tour above is Phoenix/Scottsdale: Apache Trail Tour & Canyon Lake Cruise from Arizona Scenic Tours, rated 4.9/5 from 27 reviews and from $215 per person. Despite the title, its current itinerary takes the 90-minute cruise on Saguaro Lake, outside the Canyon Lake closure, so the boat ride still happens this winter. The cruise ticket (about $34) is bought separately after booking and is non-refundable, and at least two adults must book.

Apache Trail status at a glance, winter 2026–27

Other Experiences You Might Enjoy

Winter suits the rest of the area’s desert days too: Goldfield Ghost Town, the Superstition Mountains, cruises on Saguaro Lake, Jeep rides in the Tonto National Forest, and day trips to Sedona and the Grand Canyon.

Is the Apache Trail open in winter?

Yes. As of October 21, 2026, ADOT shows State Route 88 open from Apache Junction to its junction with SR 188 at Roosevelt Lake. ADOT classes the stretch from milepost 220 to 229.2 as a primitive dirt road. The five miles from Fish Creek Vista (MP 222) to near Reavis Trailhead Road (MP 227) reopened in September 2024 after a $4 million interim repair, and the road is still fragile. ADOT closed MP 222–240 after monsoon storms in July 2026 and reopened it on July 23, 2026. On January 20, 2026, a Dollar General tractor-trailer got stuck on the one-lane Fish Creek Bridge near MP 223 and shut the road for two days. According to Arizona DPS, the driver “ignored several posted signs that he admitted he had seen, including ones stating No Trailers, No Trucks Over 40 feet, One Lane Road, and 4 Wheel Drive Only.”

ADOT’s own page is inconsistent. Its alert banner says “4-wheel drive only and no trailer signs currently posted,” while the body text says “there are no vehicle restrictions in place now at Fish Creek Vista.” Go by the signs ADOT put up in September 2024: “CAUTION: PRIMITIVE ROAD / No Trailers / 4-Wheel Drive and UTVs Only (Except Authorized Vehicles).” They cover MP 222 to the Fish Creek bridge at MP 223.5, and the last westbound turnaround is at Reavis Trailhead Road, MP 227.6. ADOT’s 2023 study recommended a $33.7 million permanent fix (chip seal, widening to 15 feet, drainage and bridge work), and it still has no dedicated funding. ADOT says it “continues seeking federal funding for more extensive upgrades, estimated to cost $33.7 million,” so expect interim conditions all winter.

For the milepost-by-milepost picture, see is the Apache Trail open right now.

Why is Canyon Lake closed, and when will it reopen?

Canyon Lake closed to the public on September 8, 2026. SRP’s press release says it and the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation “will lower the water level of Canyon Lake by 54 feet for approximately 16 weeks starting Sept. 16, 2026,” so crews can inspect and maintain normally submerged parts of Mormon Flat and Horse Mesa dams. Arizona Game & Fish describes it as work the two agencies do “once every 20 years”; the earlier drawdowns were in 1987 and 2007. The plan is about 16 weeks: four to lower, eight to inspect and repair, four to refill. According to the Arizona Republic (October 17, 2026), SRP expects refilling to start in December using water from Apache and Roosevelt lakes and to finish by mid-January 2027 “barring additional repairs.”

What’s closed: Tonto National Forest closure order 03-12-00-26-22 covers the lake, Canyon Lake Marina, the exposed lakebed, and the Acacia, Palo Verde, Boulder, Laguna and Tortilla Campground sites. It runs through February 28, 2027, unless it is lifted early. SR 88 and Boulder Canyon Trail #103 are outside the closure. You can drive past and look down on the terraced shoreline, but you can’t walk onto it; SRP warns of deep mud and sudden drop-offs. Canyon Lake Marina lists its campgrounds as reopening in May 2027.

Don’t plan anything that depends on the lake before late January 2027, and treat any February date as likely, not guaranteed. Our Canyon Lake visitor guide covers the lake itself for when it reopens.

Is the Dolly Steamboat running this winter?

No. The Dolly Steamboat suspended operations on August 30, 2026 and is out of the water for new engines, paint and carpet. Its website says it hopes to welcome guests back “at the beginning of January 2027.” That date isn’t confirmed, and the boat can’t run until the lake is refilled and the Forest Service lifts its closure.

A boat that is running: the Desert Belle on Saguaro Lake, about 30 miles from Mesa, isn’t affected. Its 80-minute narrated cruise costs $33.95 for adults (13–64), $31.95 for seniors and $21.95 for children 12 and under, booked direct with the operator. Weekend live-music cruises cost $28 for adults and $17 for children, and a Wednesday 4 p.m. wine cruise runs October to June. If you’d rather not drive, the Arizona Scenic Tours day at the top of this page pairs a Saguaro Lake cruise with Goldfield and the Superstitions.

What’s the weather like on the Apache Trail in winter?

Sunny, cool and occasionally wet. NWS Phoenix lists Sky Harbor’s December normals as a 66.2°F average high and 45.3°F average low, and NOAA’s 1991–2020 January normals are 67.6°F and 46°F. The trail climbs from roughly 1,700 feet at Apache Junction to around 3,000 feet on the passes, so it runs a few degrees cooler, and pre-dawn frost is common in canyon bottoms. Snow on the road is rare; rain is the winter hazard. Storms can wash rock and mud onto the dirt section, and ADOT warns that Fish Creek Hill “conditions can change following every rainfall.” For the rest of the year, month by month, see our guide to the best time to visit the Apache Trail.

Month by month: the Apache Trail in November, December, January and February

Sunrise and sunset times are for Phoenix (Arizona doesn’t observe daylight saving time) and are approximate to within a few minutes.

Apache Trail in November

• Weather: the warmest winter month, with average Phoenix highs in the mid-70s°F and lows in the mid-50s°F. It’s the best month for long hikes such as Siphon Draw.
• Daylight: sunrise around 6:50 a.m. at the start of the month and about 7:15 a.m. by November 30; sunset around 5:35 p.m. early on, falling to about 5:20 p.m.
• Events: Goldfield’s gunfights restart (Saturday and Sunday, hourly from noon to 4 p.m.). Lost Dutchman’s Friday music sessions begin November 6 (2–5 p.m.), monthly Thursday birding walks start (8:30–10 a.m.), and there’s a guided wildlife hike on November 20 at 10 a.m.
• Watch out: Thanksgiving is November 26, 2026. Goldfield, Tortilla Flat, the Superstition Mountain Museum and Tonto National Monument are closed, and Lost Dutchman closes at 2 p.m.

Apache Trail in December

• Weather: NWS normals of 66.2°F and 45.3°F at Phoenix Sky Harbor. Bring a real jacket for mornings and anything after 4 p.m.
• Daylight: the shortest days of the year. Sunrise about 7:30 a.m., sunset about 5:20–5:25 p.m., so you have roughly 10 hours to work with.
• Events: Lost Dutchman wildlife hikes on December 4 and 18, and monthly ranger night hikes (Saturdays, December to March). Tortilla Flat’s outdoor patio band starts on December 26 and plays daily 11 a.m.–4 p.m., weather permitting, through Easter.
• Watch out: Christmas Day (Friday, December 25) is the most-closed day of the year: Goldfield, Tortilla Flat, Lost Dutchman, the museum and Tonto National Monument are all shut. On Christmas Eve, Lost Dutchman closes at 2 p.m. and Tonto National Monument at 1:45 p.m.

Apache Trail in January

• Weather: the coldest month on average (NOAA 1991–2020 normals of 67.6°F and 46°F at Phoenix, colder on the trail). Rain is most likely in January and February.
• Daylight: sunrise 7:32 a.m. and sunset 5:31 p.m. on January 1; 7:24 a.m. and 5:58 p.m. by January 31.
• Events: Lost Dutchman State Park usually hosts a First Day Hike on January 1 (check the Arizona State Parks events page for 2027 details). Snowbird season peaks, with the longest waits at Tortilla Flat on weekends.
• Lake watch: this is the month Canyon Lake should refill and the Dolly may return. Check our road and lake status page before booking anything on the lake.
• Watch out: New Year’s Day (Friday, January 1, 2027): the Superstition Mountain Museum and Tonto National Monument are closed.

Apache Trail in February

• Weather: warming (Phoenix normals around 71°F and 49°F). After a wet winter, early wildflowers may start appearing at Lost Dutchman by late February.
• Daylight: sunset moves past 6 p.m., giving the longest usable winter days. Sunrise is about 7:20 a.m. early in the month and about 6:55 a.m. by month’s end.
• Events: Lost Dutchman Days, February 26–28, 2027 (the 63rd year): a GCPRA rodeo daily at 1:30 p.m., a carnival with more than 30 rides, and a free parade on Saturday, February 27 at 9 a.m. in downtown Apache Junction.
• Lake watch: the Canyon Lake closure order expires on February 28, 2027 at the latest.

Can a rental car drive the Apache Trail?

Partly. Any ordinary car, including a standard rental, can handle the paved road from Apache Junction past Goldfield, Lost Dutchman State Park, the Canyon Lake overlooks and Tortilla Flat (MP 213); the pavement continues to about MP 220, and graded dirt runs on to the Fish Creek Vista turnaround at MP 222. Don’t take a standard rental car past the Fish Creek Hill overlook at milepost 222. The 1.5-mile descent below it is unpaved, steep and narrow, with cliff drop-offs and a one-lane 1923 bridge, and it’s signed “4 Wheel Drive Only / No Trailers.” Major rental contracts also exclude unpaved roads. Budget and Avis terms prohibit driving “on unpaved roads,” and Enterprise says its Damage Waiver doesn’t apply to damage “on an unpaved road or off road,” so damage or a tow could fall entirely on you.

If you want to ride Fish Creek Hill itself, book a guided 4×4 or off-road tour, or bring your own high-clearance 4WD that you’re comfortable driving on a cliff road. In a rental, park at the Fish Creek Vista overlook, take the photo, and drive back the way you came. Our Apache Trail self-drive guide covers the route stop by stop.

How long does it take to drive the Apache Trail?

Times are estimates for good conditions without stops. Plan on a full day for the loop and start at sunrise in December.

Self-drive or guided tour in winter?

If you have a car and one free day, drive yourself to Tortilla Flat: it’s cheap, flexible and easy in winter. If you don’t have a car, are visiting for the first time, or want the history explained, book a guided tour that doesn’t depend on Canyon Lake until the Dolly confirms its reopening. If the dirt road is the whole point, book an off-road tour instead of risking a rental. Our tour vs. self-drive comparison goes through the trade-offs in more detail.

Which Apache Trail tours are running this winter?

Prices are GetYourGuide “from” prices checked in October 2026 and can change by date. Our Apache Trail tour cost guide breaks down what each day costs once tickets and tips are added.

Our pick, with a boat: Arizona Scenic Tours, from $215, 9 hours

Phoenix/Scottsdale: Apache Trail Tour & Canyon Lake Cruise (4.9/5 from 27 reviews). The title still says Canyon Lake, but the current itinerary sends guests to Saguaro Lake for a 90-minute cruise, plus Goldfield and lunch, in a small group. Trade-offs: the cruise is an extra fee (about $34) bought separately, it’s non-refundable, and at least two adults must book. In the off-season, cruises run at noon only.

Lowest price, no lake: Histories and Mysteries van tour, from $169, 8 hours

Apache Trail Histories and Mysteries One Day Van Tour (new listing, no reviews yet). Nothing on the itinerary depends on the lake. Stops include the Superstition Mountain Museum (the Elvis chapel from Charro! and the Apacheland barn), Goldfield Ghost Town with the mine tour and the narrow-gauge train, and lunch at Tortilla Flat. Trade-offs: it runs on Tuesdays and Wednesdays only, with early pickups between 7:15 and 8:15 a.m., and it has no reviews to go on yet.

Classic day, winter-adjusted: Detours of Arizona, from $183, 8 hours

Apache Trail w/Dolly Steamboat Day Tour (4.9/5 from 17 reviews). Detours’ own website says that “from September 2026 through mid-January 2027” it “will include a visit to the Superstition Mountain Museum in place of the cruise,” and lists a lower direct adult price of $145 for that period, plus a $5 per person fuel surcharge. Trade-off: the GetYourGuide listing still describes the Dolly cruise, so confirm the substitution and the price before you book.

Book with caution until the Dolly reopens

• Wandering Heart Adventures: From Scottsdale/Phoenix: Apache Trail Day Tour (from $200, 7 hours, up to 12 people). The listing still advertises a Canyon Lake steamboat ride; our Wandering Heart tour review covers what to ask before you pay.
• Canyon Lake sunset paddleboard and kayak tours still show on GetYourGuide, but the lake is closed. Don’t book them for dates before the official reopening.

Private tours

• Apache Trail Private Half-Day Tour (My Arizona Guide, on Viator): $299 each for two people, falling to $155 each for six, 4 to 6 hours, rated 4.9/5 from 10 reviews. Stops at Goldfield, Tortilla Flat, Canyon Lake (from the overlooks this winter) and a viewpoint; the listing doesn’t mention hotel pickup, so ask.

Off-road tours near the Apache Trail in winter

Winter is the best off-road season: the dust settles, temperatures stay in the 60s, and the desert looks its sharpest in low sun.

• Bulldog Canyon Off-Road Adventure Tour (on Viator): from $150, about 2 hours, in the Tonto National Forest permit zone at the foot of the Superstitions, rated 5.0/5 from 116 reviews.
• Scottsdale: Tonto National Forest Off-Road H1 Hummer Tour: from $260, 2 hours, with views over Saguaro Lake and the Four Peaks. It’s rated 5.0/5, but from only 5 reviews.

Our off-road and Jeep tour guide compares what each format costs.

What’s open along the Apache Trail in winter, stop by stop

Superstition Mountain Museum (MP ~199)

Open daily 9 a.m.–4 p.m. Admission is about $5 for adults and $4 for seniors, and children 17 and under get in free with a paying adult. It’s closed in August and on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s Day and Easter. Highlights are the Elvis Memorial Chapel from Charro!, the Apacheland Movie Ranch barn, and Lost Dutchman mine maps. Pets are welcome on the grounds, and you can buy a Tonto Pass here.

Goldfield Ghost Town

Free to enter and park. Open daily 10 a.m.–5 p.m.; the Mammoth Saloon stays open until 9 p.m. Arizona’s only narrow-gauge train costs about $12 for adults, the mine tour $12 for adults, $10 for seniors and $8 for children 5–12, and the Mystery Shack about $9. A three-attraction combo (about $30) is the best value. Gunfights run on Saturdays and Sundays, November through April, hourly from noon to 4 p.m. The town is closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas. Our Goldfield and gold-mining guide covers the mine tour and the town’s history.

Lost Dutchman State Park

Entry is $10 per vehicle with one person, $20 for two to four people, and $5 on foot or by bike. Trails are open 6 a.m.–8 p.m. The park accepts only cash or a Visa or Mastercard with a readable magnetic stripe (no tap or phone pay), and walk-in entry and hiker drop-offs aren’t allowed. Holiday hours: 6 a.m.–2 p.m. on Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve, closed Christmas Day. Winter programs include Friday music (November 6 to April 16, 2–5 p.m.), star parties, birding walks, ranger night hikes and botany hikes. Siphon Draw leads to the Flatiron, one of the Valley’s toughest day hikes. It’s for experienced hikers only; start early and carry plenty of water, because December daylight is short.

Canyon Lake overlooks (MP ~208–211)

The lake and its recreation sites are closed, but the drive past is open, and you won’t see the lake this low again for about 20 years. Use only legal roadside pullouts, and don’t go onto the lakebed.

Tortilla Flat (MP 213)

This 1904 stagecoach stop (population 6) has a saloon with saddle barstools, a mercantile and prickly-pear gelato. Hours are Monday–Friday 10 a.m.–6 p.m. and Saturday–Sunday 8 a.m.–6 p.m., and it’s closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas. The patio band plays daily from December 26 through Easter (11 a.m.–4 p.m., weather permitting). In high season you can wait an hour for a table, so go on a weekday or arrive for a weekend breakfast at 8 a.m.

Fish Creek Hill Vista (MP 222)

This is the end of the line for rental cars. The overlook looks down into Fish Creek Canyon and the cliff-cut road. Below here, the signs say 4WD only.

Apache Lake and Roosevelt Dam (MP ~229–240)

Apache Lake is open (Burnt Corral Campground costs $20 a night, and day use needs a Tonto Pass). Theodore Roosevelt Dam, the reason the road was built in 1904, comes at the end. Reach it by 4WD over Fish Creek Hill, or in any car via US 60, Globe and SR 188.

Tonto National Monument (off SR 188)

The visitor center is open 8 a.m.–4 p.m., and entry is $10 per person aged 16 and over. In winter, start the 1-mile round-trip Lower Cliff Dwelling trail by 3 p.m. The Upper Cliff Dwelling (3 miles round trip, 3–4 hours) is ranger-guided only, by phone reservation at (928) 467-2241, with bookings opening October 1. NPS pages disagree on the season: one says tours run “November–April,” another “January–May,” and a 2026 listing showed weekend tours starting February 7. Call to confirm dates. The monument is closed on Thanksgiving, Christmas Day and New Year’s Day.

Winter Apache Trail itineraries

Half day (any car, about 5 hours, fits December’s short days)

1. 9:00 Superstition Mountain Museum (1 hour). Buy a Tonto Pass here if you plan to stop at Forest Service sites.
2. 10:15 Lost Dutchman State Park: the Treasure Loop or a short walk toward Siphon Draw for Flatiron views (1–1.5 hours).
3. 12:00 Drive past the drained Canyon Lake and stop at the overlooks.
4. 12:30 Lunch, and live music from December 26, at Tortilla Flat.
5. 2:00 Head back to Goldfield in time for a weekend gunfight (last show around 4 p.m.) and the narrow-gauge train.

Full day (any car to MP 222, about 9 hours)

1. 7:45 Leave Phoenix or Scottsdale; get fuel in Apache Junction, because there’s no fuel between Tortilla Flat and SR 188.
2. 8:30 Tortilla Flat opens at 8 a.m. on weekends, so arrive early to beat the line.
3. 9:30 Continue to Fish Creek Vista (MP 222), take photos, and turn around.
4. 11:00 Superstition Mountain Museum.
5. 12:30 Goldfield: lunch, the mine tour and train, and the gunfight (weekends).
6. 3:00 Lost Dutchman State Park. Hike until about 4:45.
7. ~5:25 Watch the sunset light on the Superstitions from the park, then leave before the 8 p.m. gate closure.

If you drive your own 4WD: do the full loop clockwise (Apache Junction, Fish Creek Hill, Roosevelt Dam, Tonto National Monument, Globe, US 60) so you descend Fish Creek Hill in morning light. Start by 7 a.m. in December.

What should I pack for the Apache Trail in winter?

• Layers: a fleece or puffy jacket for mornings in the 40s°F and a light shell for rain
• Sun protection (the winter sun is still strong) and sunglasses for the low afternoon glare
• At least 2 liters of water per person, more for hikes
• Cash: for the Lost Dutchman self-pay station, Lost Dutchman Days ($2 gate, cash only), tips and small vendors
• A printed or offline map: cell service is patchy past Tortilla Flat and close to nonexistent until Roosevelt Lake
• A headlamp if you’re hiking; December sunsets come before 5:30 p.m.
• Sturdy shoes; trails like Siphon Draw have slick rock

Practical info: fees, passes, fuel, cell service and safety

• Tonto Pass: required to park at developed Tonto National Forest recreation sites, such as Apache Lake day use and the Roosevelt Lake sites. It costs $8 a day from vendors in Apache Junction or $12 at on-site machines. The annual Tonto Discovery Pass is $80. Pull-offs on SR 88 itself don’t require one.
• Lost Dutchman State Park: $10 or $20 per vehicle, or $5 on foot or by bike (cash or a swipe-stripe Visa or Mastercard only).
• Tonto National Monument: $10 per person aged 16 and over.
• Fuel: fill up in Apache Junction. There’s no fuel between Tortilla Flat and SR 188.
• Cell service: patchy after Tortilla Flat. Download offline maps.
• Road status: check az511.gov (or call 511) and ADOT’s SR 88 page the morning you go, especially after rain.
• Safety: don’t follow GPS shortcuts onto the dirt section. Stay off the exposed Canyon Lake lakebed. Don’t start long hikes after about 1 p.m. in December.

Is the Apache Trail good for kids, dogs and visitors with limited mobility?

• Kids: yes. Goldfield (train, mine, gunfights) and Tortilla Flat suit families, and the paved section is a short, easy drive.
• Dogs: the Superstition Mountain Museum welcomes pets on its grounds. Dogs aren’t allowed on the Desert Belle (service animals only) or on Tonto National Monument’s Upper Cliff Dwelling trail. Check each stop’s pet rules before you go.
• Accessibility: the Desert Belle’s climate-controlled lower cabin is wheelchair-accessible. Goldfield’s dirt streets and boardwalks are uneven. The Fish Creek Hill section is a rough, bumpy ride in any vehicle.

Where to eat and stay

• Eat: the Tortilla Flat Superstition Saloon (burgers, chili, prickly-pear gelato); Goldfield’s steakhouse, saloon and bakery; plenty of options in Apache Junction and Gold Canyon.
• Stay: the Lost Dutchman State Park campground (134 sites; book well ahead for winter weekends); Apache Junction and Gold Canyon hotels for the shortest morning drive; Apache Lake Marina & Resort if you have 4WD or come in via SR 188. Tortilla Campground and the Canyon Lake Marina campground are closed by the drawdown.

How crowded is the Apache Trail in winter?

Winter is peak season. Snowbirds arrive from November, Tortilla Flat’s busiest stretch runs from December 26 to Easter, and Lost Dutchman’s campsites sell out on winter weekends. Weekdays are much quieter. With the lake drained and the Dolly docked, expect fewer cars at the Canyon Lake end this year. Lost Dutchman Days weekend (February 26–28, 2027) brings heavy traffic to Apache Junction.

Where to check live status

• ADOT: the SR 88 (Apache Trail) project page and az511.gov or 511
• SRP: the Canyon Lake Drawdown Project page
• Tonto National Forest: the Canyon Lake Drawdown Public Safety Closure (Order 03-12-00-26-22) and the Tonto Pass FAQ
• Arizona State Parks & Trails: the Lost Dutchman State Park page and events calendar
• National Park Service: Tonto National Monument hours and Upper Cliff Dwelling tours
• Operators: Dolly Steamboat, Desert Belle Cruises, Goldfield Ghost Town, Tortilla Flat, Superstition Mountain Museum, Lost Dutchman Days

Apache Trail in winter: FAQ

Affiliate disclosure: we earn a commission if you book through our GetYourGuide or Viator links, at no extra cost to you. We don’t accept payment for placement, and we flag tours affected by the Canyon Lake closure even when they pay us.

Planning the day around a guided tour? Check your exact date on the featured Apache Trail day tour before you go, because winter schedules and the lake’s reopening can still change.